tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2128565930155809313.post6294404512499511869..comments2024-03-02T02:36:44.101-06:00Comments on In Principio ... Deus: The Institutes: The Heart of IdolatryToddhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14291216989052388800noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2128565930155809313.post-65016083052574695912009-01-31T12:24:00.000-06:002009-01-31T12:24:00.000-06:00Todd,I just finished Calvin's polemic on this subj...Todd,<BR/><BR/>I just finished Calvin's polemic on this subject, and wonder if perhaps we are now in agreement, as I have now considered his whole argument, and have prayerfully changed my position:<BR/><BR/>Resolved:<BR/><BR/> * It is an affront to God to represent him in any visible fashion.<BR/> * Visible representations of Christ, and the Holy Spirit by themselves, serve no purpose and furthermore lend themselves towards idolatry.<BR/> * Visible representations of Christ, and the Holy Spirit engaged in historical settings, are valuable for teaching and admonition.<BR/><BR/>Here is a link to my post on this matter: http://tinyurl.com/cbhtm9David Porterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17231385435705386265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2128565930155809313.post-66799255688116689772009-01-30T06:36:00.000-06:002009-01-30T06:36:00.000-06:00The purpose of the commandment, it seems to me, is...The purpose of the commandment, it seems to me, is to prevent the making of images for the purposes of worship. This goes farther (and I think from the illustrations of the commandment given to us in Scripture, this is what the commandment actually does mean) than merely saying "you shall not make a brass eagle and worship the eagle". This means that you don't make images with the intent even of worshipping the true and living God by means of it.<BR/><BR/>Now what does it mean to make an image with the intent of putting it to use in worship? <BR/><BR/>Well, first of all, it means that the bass you mention is just fine. It's not meant to represent God or focus the mind on God as you worship God. <BR/><BR/>But what was the purpose of "Pieta"? What is the purpose of the "Jesus's Senior Portrait" that we all know because it was mass produced from the 70's onward? What is the purpose of statues of Jesus in Roman Catholic churches? All of these are meant to excite the emotions and give the mind a focus so that God might be worshipped. As such, I believe, all fall short of the commandment, which instructs us specficially not to make and use such things. <BR/><BR/>What does a picture meant to represent Jesus do? If it is not meant to incite worship and worshipful thoughts about Jesus, then I am not clear what its purpose is. If it IS meant to incite worship, then we have two problems. First, I believe, is the 2nd commandment itself. It's a violation because Jesus is God, and we are not to use images that are meant to depict God for us as foci for our eyes as we meditate on Him and worship Him. <BR/><BR/>But even if you don't grant me that, there is a second problem, a more clear violation of the 2nd commandment. Nobody argues that the Divine is to be imaged. Everyone who argues for pictures of Jesus seems to argue that, since Jesus is a man, it's okay - images of men are allowed, and what's more, God made His express image in Jesus Christ the man. True. However, if one tries to depict Christ (about whom we have NO idea what he looked like except that He was a Jew) what is being depicted? If the man alone, then we are not picturing God, and we are falsely depicting the Messiah, for He is fully God and fully Man. If we are trying to depict Christ truthfully, then we are in strict violation of the 2nd commandment because we are trying to depict the Divine 2nd person of the Trinity.<BR/><BR/>This goes beyond what Calvin had to say in this section, but only so far. Images to be used in Worship - public, private, whatever - he argued, and I argue together with him, are violations of the 2nd commandment. <BR/><BR/>Obviously you have to do what is right according to your conscience - I only offer this as food for thought. It took me a long while, but I have come down firmly on the side of the issue that I've explained above.Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14347607226329136349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2128565930155809313.post-10861050574796311942009-01-27T16:36:00.000-06:002009-01-27T16:36:00.000-06:00I haven't studied this section yet, but it occurs ...I haven't studied this section yet, but it occurs to me that you left out part of the verse: <BR/><BR/>"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."<BR/><BR/>Using your logic, isn't that picture of a big bass I caught, when I was a child, a sin? Because, using your logic, he also says, "that is in the water under the earth".<BR/><BR/>It would seem to me that God is telling us not to make idols to worship.<BR/><BR/>If I have Michelangelo's "Pieta" sitting on my desk, I don't worship it. It does, however, serve to help me understand the woe of that moment.<BR/><BR/>As I said, I haven't studied Calvin's argument yet, and I will study it prayerfully. But, you logic doesn't make sense to me.<BR/><BR/>I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is intended.David Porterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17231385435705386265noreply@blogger.com